If anyone is interested in seeing actual racism in action there are two good news' events; the eviction of non-white residents on a Mohawk reserve by the band council, and the permanent seizure of two children from their racist parents in Winipeg. Since the "racist" comments/insults have been flying, it is important to have our facts straight, rather than emotional opinions (t).

"carlarchie_08" actually there was no change, my feelings on the subject have been consistent for years, I think more to the point (re: my opening statements) I often use inflamatory comments to see if a real debate is possible, to see if the other person has any realistic grounding in the facts. I have found your arguments to be informed and enjoyable, I thank you for your time on subject.

menthelius,

Things happen one step at a time. The first comments you wrote were seemingly dismissive (it happened around the world, everyone suffers injustices etc). I am glad there seems to have been a change.

Actually, I believe the only way to reconcile the past is to recognize Aboriginal Rights and Title rather than continue to ignore the past and try to extinguish the Rights and Title; which is what BC and Canada are attempting to do. And given the recognition of Rights and Title, co-management could then be expanded to co-jurisdiction of traditional territory.

Btw. The only taxes I believe in are "dis-incentive" taxes on things like pollutants, cigarrettes, junkk food etc.
Getting off topic now...

I'm not about to put my hat in the ring to say who's right or wrong, but I do find it unfortunate that (at least in this forum) anybody who thinks we need to quit looking at the past and move on - must be a racist. This takes away from actually LISTENING to the other point of view. Perhaps the original letter should have opened with "When are all the people who whine about what they haven't got, going to stop complaining and work together for a better future?"

"carlarchie_08" of course I would agree to resources/revenue co-management, I'd probably hire you to run it since you sound like you're pretty together and I'm just a simple tradesman.
Regarding the law, we all know it's not equal and it's not impartial, we all know there are many abuses: hell I'll even admit that every once in a while I get one of my native buddies to grab me a carton of smokes for less than half what I pay, and talk about cheap gas! I know you'll say something along the lines that this is only partial repayment of what the gov't owes you, I DO NOT DISAGREE! Again, those are some of the major reasons I'm for land claim settlements, level the playing field for all Canadians (absolutely I include the natives in my definition of a Canadian, the same for the french-quebecois), eliminate the perception of inequality that many whites have towards natives.
I've personally always admired the traditions and heritage of the natives, I grew up in the North and kind of envy the fact that my buddies knew every relative they had down to their 3rd cousin twice removed on their brothers' sisters' side...and what's more most of them got along!
For the rest, I believe "Alfonso" had a good spiel and said most of it better than I could, I'm mainly just a ranter type of guy and more than willing to give credit where due! You know, I once lost a good job because I had dared to complain to the foreman that the new-girl was getting some pretty raw treatment, I was raised to believe in equality (my mother was pretty liberated I'm thinking).
I think the bottom line, is that you and I could hack out an agreement of some kind, but as soon as gov't becomes involved we all become victims!

menthelius,

Glad that we don't disagree on a majority of what I wrote. But I wonder what exactly it is that you don't agree with?
What would be so convenient to believe in cooperation?
What is convenient is that you dismissed my questions regarding co-management of resources and shared revenue within our traditional territories.
It is also convenient that "cooperation and participation" are often in terms defined by the "colonizer".

Racism is not only a white thing. I'm white and lived in the lower mainland. There I have been refused service by clerks who suddenly can't speak english because I'm white, told there is nothing in the store for me again because I am white, asked to leave the store again because I am white (all in different stores some run by people of asian ancestry and some run by people of east indian anscestry), had my shopping cart blocked by asian families in Vancouver, by east indian families in Surrey, seen east indian men stare at white women as they go by and grab their crotches while laughing, and been told I don't belong in a neighbourhood again because I am white. In Surrey a young man was shot by an east indian man who had also shot the only white cab driver - race related crimes. The list goes on and on.

Racism is something we all face and we all feel it from both sides of the picture. HOWEVER, not all people from any group are racist. Usually it is, in my experience, a finite number in any group who are very, very, very visible.

I know my Dad used to complain about the east indians; after working for a couple east indians down in Van though, I certainly have some of that attitude for certain east indians! Like any barrel of apples though, there's always a few bad ones at the bottom. As for Japanese and Chinese however, the ones I worked for were all decent human beings, devoted to family and very understanding of their fellow man. White bosses are the same hit and miss types, some good, some bad, some downright a******s! I think out of all the races I've worked with/for (incl. east europeans, phillipinos, thai, etc), the best are Japanese.

I have to wonder if the racists that just tell natives to 'get over it' also go around whining about how Asians and East Indians are taking over our Country, lol. Wonder if they can taste the hypocracy on their tongues?

Racists and bullies are usually the first ones to start throwing labels around, usually when someone's opinion differs from their own, bigots and hypocrites do the same when someone disagrees with their "personal truths".

I agree, reservations should be ended. Although I applaud the Kamloops band for encouraging business on their land, I think that reservations cannot succeed even if they had complete control. Most reservations were set-up like 'the other side of the tracks' where blacks in the US once lived. The land does not have enough resources to maintain self-sufficiency, or they don't really have control of those resources, that is where land titles are still important. I have lived all over BC, and seen many rez's. As far as commerce goes, most have only a 'Corner-Store' setup in someone's kitchen/living room. While the Kamloops band must be generating enough wealth to call themselves a town, they unfortunately are forced to accomodate mostly dirty and polluting Industrial businesses. They do not have control over the resources the way a province does, and sadly, many of those businesses are run by racist whites. I know this because I currently work at a business on the rez, and have not seen any natives working along side me (granted, equal opportunity and equal representation are completely opposite, no matter what the government says when they ask you if you are a minority). I have seen many general labourers come and go, none native, and I highly doubt no 'qualified' natives have applied.

"Carlachie" you are partially right on your second to last point. Although I, as a worker/peon, will not leave BC, I have to agree that when the resources, or demand for those resources, run out, so does big business and all those jobs. I used to work in a Sawmill :(

Incidentally, Canada became a confederacy in 1867 via the BNA Act. Canada became a nation via the Constitution Act in 1982. Our Charter of Rights and freedoms is contained in the Consitution Act. Thanks to Treudeau (sorry about the spelling) we are an independant nation with the Queen as our sovereign. We are no longer a subject of Great Britain.

The Indian Act really is a relic from colonialism which should be repealed.

By the way, I don't know anyone who "looks down on natives". People are people and people are opportunistic and greedy regardless of their culture, religion, race, skin colour, etc.

My 2 cents. I do think the Indian Act and the reservations are unjust and demeaning and should be done away with. Freehold title of the reservations should be given to the bands and no further consessions. It is well past time to move on and assume the bands can manage their own affairs (somehow I think they can, after all, they are made up of human beings just like everyone else and will either succeed or fail just like everyone else who isn't native).

People also have to take responsability for their OWN lives and not point the finger at others as an excuse for what they have become and expect hand outs for what their ancestors went through.

Those abused by the residential schools do; however, deserve and need assistance but that is different from claiming land here and there and everywhere and saying "you owe me money for what happened in the past".

"Alfonso" that was very eloquently phrased! That would pretty much line up with my "ideals" in my little world. I am NOT saying that natives roll over and die! I am saying that I would help if I could, if I was NOT called racist names because I'm white, if I was not insulted for my intelligence because I'm white, if, if, if...

That would be my point about racism from both sides, speaking only from personal experience mind you! I have many friends that are Haida and Nishga, but these people are colorblind. I know, have worked for, and worked with many natives who could only see my white skin and assume...

"carlarchie_08" I do NOT disagree with the majority of your points! Rather the opposite, but you yourself are pointing out the need for co-operation, do you believe in that, or are they just convenient words for you to use?

As for racism negating facts, who said that? I said that for you to deny racism existed on "both" sides invalidated your argument, not the facts.

Although no-one is going to start/stop being racist based on an opinion-page debate, I gotta put my 2-cents in, lol

I think that the issues of today's aboriginals hardly have anything to do with what happened centuries ago. Much can be forgotten/forgiven in a few generations. However, very little is forgotten/forgiven in a single generation. I think it doesn't matter if you're brown, white, blue, or purple. If, as a child, you are taken from your family (with the promise of a better life), then having your language beaten out of you, a religion forced on you, and your traditional ways of life constantly ridiculed, you are probably going to miss out on some of the finer points of parenthood! Many of todays aboriginal youths are the children of people who were constantly physically and/or sexually abused throughout their entire adolescent years. This has nothing to do with 'who was here first'. This is the result of our government systematically and methodically trying to assimilate the aboriginals before they were educated enough to stop it! And they ALMOST succeeded!

Much that was done cannot be undone, and if you have turned to drugs, including alcohol, (I hate it when people say drugs AND alcohol, as though it is better/worse than any other drug) to try and bury your past, or continued the abuse you suffered by abusing your children, then I feel sorry for you, not angry at you. If, however, you were lucky enough to not be irreversibly scarred by the Residential school system that was still in full bloom only 30 years ago, not 300 years ago, then now is the time to raise a very LARGE, successful, and educated family, and teach them whatever language, religion, and way of life you see fit. The 'Canadian' way of life was built by immigrants often having over a dozen children! Canada does not have just one religion, does not have just one language, and does not have just one set of laws.

We have federal laws/taxes for the benefit of all Canadians. But we are not all the same! We have provincial law, because different kinds of people tended to migrate to different kinds of places and wanted different ways of doing things. But the key is, we have Municipal rules because each and every small pocket of Canadians have their own way of life. I think that a huge part of the problem today is that we talk about 'the natives' as though they are all one kind of person, with one way of life. That never has been true. Canada is HUGE!!! Even though there is now 'the Euro', the tiny country of France still speaks french, and all those people squished into Germany don't answer to the Queen of England (even though they lost the World War, TWICE!!). We are not trying to force British Columbians to behave like Quebecers or Newfoundlanders. Although I do not know enough about it, I think the Nisgaa up north have the right idea. Reservations were not a gift of land. They were a place natives were forced to live. Join the rest of Canada, and create your own provinces/territories/municipalities where, within federal law and taxes, you can restore your values and way of life. I think the time for significant change is now, or never. Either way, you're grandchildren will have absolutely no understanding of what your life was like.

Okay trolls, bring it! lol

menthelius,

"Reality is that we ALL have to work together!"
Nobody said or implied otherwise. But now that you have said this, how do you feel about co-management of land and revenue sharing?

"Reality is that many people have been abused, oppressed, and taken advantage of around the world."
This is a sad reality. The reality is that it continues to this day around the world! There are multi-national corporations who take advantage of people, their resources, then leave. There are organizations who continue to run missionaries around the world converting people to Christianity as though their existing beliefs aren't good enough. This is not OK and it must stop.

"Reality is that the Age of Imperialism saw many horrors inflicted upon native peoples of many different lands on all seven continents."
Again, this was not OK. It is also not the past. We still live under the Indian Act and we still live on reserves. "Neocolonial" governments still employ legislative tools, among others, in order to extinguish our title to the land and our right to self-government.

"Reality is that one law, equality for all, and justice for all is NOT a fact."
One Law is a fact. It is called the Canadian Constitution, under which falls the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Check it out. These two documents are the foundation of the Canadian Confederacy.
Sadly, you are right that Equality for all is not a fact. First Nations people are continually looked down upon. We are not seen as equals but lesser. It is believed that we are not able to govern ourselves as we see fit. It is believed that we are not equally entitled to the land as any other people or gov't.
Justice will be done when Canadians recognize their own laws and history.

"Reality is that I was born here and do not plan on "moving on" after everything is used up."
This may be the case. However, it is not for too many people. There are corporations who will open up shop. They will make a profit off of the local resources. When those resources are gone, they will make a buck somewhere else. There are also people who will lose jobs, they will move somewhere else where there is jobs.

"Reality is that racism is on both sides, to deny this simple fact makes your argument invalid!"
Racism or lack thereof does not change any of the facts.

Thanks you Mr. Joey Jack.

Your letter is a reasonable response to the original racist letter. It brought out all the bullies and bigots who lurk in the comment forum making personal attacks on anyone who speaks the truth. So you must be doing something right. Unlike the newspaper who printed a racist letter in the first place.

Likely it's my turn to be personally insulted, again, by the same sorry crew that attacks anyone making a valid point about the lingering racism. Proves our point. Why be so personal in the attacks unless that's what you do out of habit, being racists and bullies and all...

Reality is that we ALL have to work together!

Reality is that many people have been abused, oppressed, and taken advantage of around the world.

Reality is that the Age of Imperialism saw many horrors inflicted upon native peoples of many different lands on all seven continents.

Reality is that one law, equality for all, and justice for all is NOT a fact.

Reality is that I was born here and do not plan on "moving on" after everything is used up.

Reality is that racism is on both sides, to deny this simple fact makes your argument invalid!

12GaugePump et all,

Your notions of being in and knowing this world are very narrow and ignorant of BC and Canada's past and present realities. Your perceptions of this world hinder a future that could benefit everyone.

Reality - We all live here. We are all here to stay. Nobody will deny that and nobody is trying to turn back the clocks.

Reality - The past does not stay in the past. Your linear notion of this world is false - the world is not flat? Nobody would not be in the situation we are all in if it were not for the past. In many cases, it is not even the past. The reality is, we are still here, still alive. There are those who have suffered the indignity of Residential Schools - they are still here with us! The last residential school closed in 1996.

Reality - Many people talk one law, one people as though Aboriginal people should just adopt a western way of being in this world. Well, this is exactly the same thinking that led to the creation of reserves, to the creation of the Indian Act, to the creation of Residential Schools! Each one of these was designed to control Indian "populations" and the forced assimilation thereof. Reserves and the Indian Act are still with us. They are NOT the past! What's disgusting is that Canadians will speak about equality and righteousness with one face, then turn and deny every Aboriginal person in Canada the opportunity for basic human rights when the opportunities arise.

Reality - Aboriginal Rights and Title are legally recognized and entrenched concepts. We operate with the Authority of the Canadian Constitution of Rights and Freedoms and the Supreme Court of Canada! THE Law.

Reality - We are still here, and we do not accept the notion that we are victims - because we are not! Along with myself, there are more than 700 Aboriginal students attending Thompson Rivers University. This represents nearly 10% of the total population of that institution.

Reality - We have equal rights to govern ourselves and our land. This is a basic human right under the Constitution. It is sad that there are those who continue to deny these rights to us.

Reality - When western "settlers" feel they have taken this land for all they could, they will move on. This is the immigrant attitude that continues to exist. But when all is said and done, First Nations will still be here!

LB6;

Popular anthropological belief is that the natives crossed the Bering Land Bridge (it wasn't under water at the time) during the last ice age and continued on down to South America. There are other theories that people came to North America via boats/rafts at a later date. There is also one theory that people originated here and may have crossed over to Asia but that theory has been thoroughly discredited.

My point on all of this is: the past is the past; learn from it and get over it. No one is entitled to free handouts just because their ancestors were or may have been harmed or displaced. That happened everywhere.

wow

Grouchy & menthelius! I LOVE IT! Is this an historical piece of information! Ie: Natives immigrating via Bering St from Russia??? If soo! I think we need to have a HUGE DISCUSSION WITH OUR POLIITICIANS!!

Hey, your great-great-great grandfather ripped off my great-great-great grandfather so I want compensation today. In today's dollars. From you and your descendants.

It's easy to simplify the issue eh?

Seriously mismanaged by all levels of government on every side for far too long. It would be nice if injustice could be undone but true reparation is impossible, the price is infinite and where is that money supposed to come from?

My ancestors didn't arrive in Canada til the 30s but me and my descendants are on the financial hook forever? I'm not sure that clause was in their immigration package.

then the opposite must be true, if you respond to Joey Jack, then he goes away.

I'm new on here but I see what you mean. Cool rebuttal letter, by the way.

I won't feed any trolls anymore.

If anyone who likes my letter wants to respond to other comments, please don't.

If you ignore trolls, they go away.

Actually "JoeyJack" the FIRST natives to this country kept moving down to South America. Don't you know anything about history? Not "whiteman's history" as you have said so often, but actual REAL WORLD HISTORY, written by people of many different colors, races, religions, etc. Oh I forgot you think that's all made up. Did you know a couple of hundred years ago, the church burned people alive for saying the world was round? Do you believe the moon landing happened, or do you think that was made up by whiteman? What about the Holocaust, think it was real? Start learning about the world before attempting to impose your illogical views on everyone, PLEASE!!!

Good to see that you still embrace all your traditions, Joey. Radio, computers, medicine, law schools,clogging up the Rez with houses and golf courses for white guy's to use... Shouda kicked 'em off the continent when you had the chance, a little too late now....btw, the going rate for an Ipad is SIX beaver pelts....good ones,too. In all seriousness though, you can't turn back the clock and people are getting tired of answering to things that happened a long time ago. Cultures all over the world have been screwed over at one time or another...is it fair and equitable ?...no, but it happened and a lot of people think it is past time to move on. It would be nice if governments could finally come up with a solution....start holding your breath.

I agree my friend, I agree.

"Grouchy" that's what I've been saying for years, the natives are immigrants like everyone else here in the country. What makes them better than everyone else? Native heritage? Wearing furs? Teepees? So in the age of colonial imperialism the natives lost! Now 150 years later somehow it's my fault? Grow up.

Seems to me that people on both sides are forgetting one simple fact here. Natives immigrated to North America via the Bering Straight from Russia. They were just here first and not really native to Canada.