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The man behind a proposed rail-tie gasifier in Kamloops is reconsidering his plan after facing a largely hostile standing-room crowd at the TRU Campus Activity Centre on Thursday night.
More than 500 packed the Grand Hall for the Kamloops Chamber of Commerce-sponsored “Rail Ties, Real Issues” forum to hear Aboriginal Cogeneration Corp. and Ministry of Environment spokesmen answer questions about the controversial project.
There wasn't a lot of love in the room.
City resident David Charbonneau asked ACC president Kim Sigurdson if he will go ahead with his plant no matter what. He noted Kamloops City council unanimously opposed the gasifier and many local residents have expressed loud, persistent opposition.
“Will you operate this plant in the face of stringent opposition?” asked Charbonneau.
“No,” said Sigurdson, after a short pause. “We are taking this (opposition) into consideration. “We are going to look at this and try to ascertain whether we should or shouldn't put it here,” he said. After the forum, he said he expects to make a decision in the next couple of weeks.
Also on the panel were consulting engineer Robert Pietrzak and Ministry of Environment air quality specialist Ralph Adams. Sigurdson told the crowd he started his company in part to find an answer to a growing environmental problem. Rail companies dispose of more than 25 million railway ties a year, often improperly. They are buried or used in landscaping. Sometimes they are burned in the open.
“Something needed to be done,” he said, adding he found the gasifier technology in North Dakota. These “green machines” can burn everything from coconut husks to creosote rail ties and produce less emissions than a wood stove or a car on the highway.
“We got into this to do something good,” he said. “We thought this was a very good technology, and we still think it is. “If you have an opportunity to change something that is being improperly done, wouldn't you try?”
He acknowledged he's made mistakes, largely in not speaking to Kamloops residents earlier.
“I guess I should have done this sooner,” he said, “but we're here tonight.”
Sigurdson said his company looked at other locations, including Ashcroft, but realized Kamloops offers the perfect location, as it is a major rail centre. In Kamloops, ACC can get four deliveries of rail ties every day, an important logistical consideration when planning to burn 500,000 ties a year.
In one of the first comments from the crowd, Rick Fleming told Sigurdson it's clear Kamloops does not want the plant. “You can see we really don't want this,” he said, to loud applause and cheers. “Take the damn thing to Manitoba or Alberta or Saskatchewan. Why in this city, where we already have air quality problems? Why is the Ministry of Environment letting this happen?”
Adams said the ministry has two criteria when judging applications for discharge permits — does a proposal meet emission standards and will it affect human health?
In both instances, ACC's proposal passed, Adams said. If the requirements are met, the government cannot say no. The proposed emissions from ACC's gasifier are extremely low, he added. Interior Health agrees there will be no impacts on human health. The highest emission concentrations will occur 300 metres from the plant. The closest homes are 800 metres from the proposed ACC site, Adams said.
The information did little to sway the skeptics in the crowds, who worried about lack of government enforcement resources and something going wrong. One man said he feels as if his family is being turned into “human guinea pigs.”
Sigurdson was asked what would happen if there was a fire in the creosote chips. The crowd was told there would be only two or three days of chips on site, and they will be stored in closed containers.
“If there is a fire, it will be suppressed. It is not something we will be too concerned about,” said Pietrzak.
One woman in the audience asked Sigurdson why Kamloops should tolerate any increases in emissions into the local air shed, especially when there is so much opposition. “What entitles you to use my children as an experiment . . . without my consent?” she said, to a rousing standing ovation from the crowd.
Sigurdson repeated what he said many times through the evening — the proposed emissions are less than a wood stove. He added local and provincial health agencies are on side with his proposal.
“We are confident what we would do would be safe,” he said.
“We're not,” yelled some in the crowd.
Tempers got shorter as the evening wore on, especially as forum moderator Murray Young tried to keep questions under his one-minute time limit, by cutting off the microphone if the questions went too long. Some of those behind the mike simply shouted their answers to the panel when they were cut off, often with the support of the crowd.
Sigurdson told the crowd several times he chose Kamloops for good reason.
“We thought we did this for the right reasons,” he said.
“You're wrong,” yelled someone from the crowd.
“Keep looking,” shouted someone else.
After the forum, Sigurdson told the media he will make his decision about whether to build here in the next week or so, after consulting with his company's shareholders. He will also meet with local politicians to help him gauge the full extent of public opinion.
“I feel good about this,” he said. “We're doing something good.”
rkoopmans@kamloopsnews.ca
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ACC may reconsider gasifier
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Comments
aged says...
"you" meaning opponents.
aged says...
Maybe a lawsuit involving media and it's constant misinformation, misleading you to believe ACC is "burning ties" and therefore putting your immediate health at risk!
noidear says...
So it looks like he might have the audacity to go through with it. Why am I not surprised.
mike says...
http://www.gasification.org/ ??? Are you kidding me? They are a group that lobbies for it, of course they will not say anything that would make it look negative! And NO , gasifing used railties for 100% OF FUEL HAS NEVER BEEN DONE SUCCESSFULLY. Get you facts straight
branden says...
http://www.gasification.org/what_is_gasification/environmental_benefits.aspx
go to this site so people can actually learn what they are giving up, its not some experimental project its been around for a while. dont just say its bad for kamloops when you dont even know what it is.
branden says...
http://www.gasification.org/what_is_gasification/environmental_benefits.aspx
go to this site so people can actually learn what they are giving up, its not some experimental project its been around for a while. dont just say its bad for kamloops when you dont even know what it is.
Mr.Zit says...
Sweet, now that we've basically gotten rid of that company. Let's choose another one to chase,hopefully we'll be able to chase off a bunch companies and maybe, MAYBE! We'll be known for our great reputation and hostility towards companies no one will ever lay eye's upon Kamloops!
Kinda fun and cool seeing all of Kamloops get into this!
BENTBLADE says...
Sigurdson And all of your ACC group saddle up and ride into the rising sun and don't look back .Oh make room for flatlander as well ..
Corky I couldn't agree with you more Winnipeg would be an ideal area as I see it as the center of Canada
Alfonso says...
While I am proud that Kamloopsians have become vocal about stopping someone else from polluting our environment, I am left wondering why we aren't nearly so outraged at the pollution we cause all by ourselves. How many of those opposed to ACC take public transit? How many have wood stoves, or light a fire when camping? How many with big diesel trucks have made the simple modifications to run on veggie oil? How many buy food that has been transported hundreds, if not thousands, of kilometres? How many of those who even bother to recycle half of their recyclables remain ignorant to the fact that a lot of recycling is still powered by burning oil and coal? Do you really think your grandchildren are going to be satisfied that you made the bold move to flourescent bulbs, and started unplugging your cellphone charger while not in use?? Wake up, give your head a shake, and BLAME YOURSELF at least as much as others for the state of our environment. You do not HAVE to live this way just because someone making a profit wants you to!!!
Kamiloops says...
""two gasifiers in the area already""
Yes most people do know that. And I have seen those both polluting as well when only using clean biomass, not Railroad ties. Did you know each railties has approx 25lbs of creosote in it when they are made?
Big difference gasifing clean biomass over railroad ties which the BC Gov does not even define as a clean biomass.
ed says...
I suppose you know that there are already two gasifiers in the area already. oh, but you wouldn't know because they don't smoke, or smell, or pollute or...
ed says...
Of course you know that you already have two gasifiers in the area! Way to go. But then how would you know. they are very clean, no odor, no smoke. A vast change from hog fuel burners or incinerators.
ed says...
Of course you know that you already have two gasifiers in the area! Way to go.
Kamiloops says...
Aged - Not sure about you? Maybe you need to get out more?
aged says...
I mean roofie.
aged says...
Must be time for a new roof?
Kamiloops says...
Aged? Are you ok? You must have me confused with someone else? The oldest house in my area is about 25 years old.
aged says...
Im sorry Kamiloops, I was having a discussion with your neighbor how 60 years worth of asphalt removed from his roof will affect the local landfill.
Kamiloops says...
Aged? I am really confues in what you are saying now? Please explain? munch fest ?
aged says...
Have a munch fest and come down. You'll understand when the head clears.
Kamiloops says...
aged - I am not understanding your last two posts? I am not sure what yopu are trying to say? Can you clarify?
aged says...
Kamiloops, you are sounding like Milobar postponing water infrastructure upgrading and leaving it for another administration.
aged says...
The chips should be tested. Kamiloops should you be talking to the ones you claim, then you are the only one doing the talking. You claim the chips must be tested, so are you going to let them test them or spout off and speak for the multiple personalities you incounter in every day life?
Kamiloops says...
10% of Kamloops is opposed to this plant!!! OMG what are you smoking! Now I do realize you really are not in touch at all. Not one person I have spoken too in Kamloops is in favor of this plant.
Walk into any business , coffee shop, gym and ask any stranger what they think. You will be hard pressed to find anyone. I know many people that work in the dirt ministry's that live in Kamloops that are against it as well.
Did you even go to the forum?
Kamiloops says...
Grouchy,
Read it all. My point is about the chipping operation. Head of Environment Canada’s Industrial Contaminants Section asserted that many of the ties were double treated during the past half century and the potential release of harmful chemicals is risky enough to avoid
incineration altogether.. Creosote contaminated wells..they are not even allowed to store the ties on the ground anymore they have to stay on the rail car and then to the chipped and the chipping area is now lined and its on cement with drains going to the sewer so no groundwater contamination. You complain that people dont talk about facts but when facts are presented to you that make the ACC operation questionable you blow them off.
The chips should be tested in the ACC operation, we really don't know what they are using for fuel, we can only go by a one page letter from CP saying they are all creosote and by ACC saying so. That is just ridiculous!
Much of what is going on at French Island is similar to the tie chipping ACC has here.
Google map the location and see the mess.
Read that document with more of an open mind.
Grouchy says...
I read at that address Kamiloops. Not even close to the same thing is it ? Quit trying to compare apples and oranges. That was a garbage incinerator. if they did anything different thats on them, not ACC.
Grouchy says...
Gazza, if you had read Bens post all the way through, he said " to the sunny ,smog free fraser Valley and commute 50 miles each way ".I am going to be generous here and say that maybe 10% of kamloops is opposed to this plant, thats about 8500 people out of 85,000. When the few try to run the majority then it becomes anarchy. You and a few that post here and the save Kamloops bunch are in the minority. So do us all a favor and take your misinformation , pet scientists, and your rabid attitude and leave. Let ACC build their plant and leave us to be just fine with it. I'm sure there is a spot out on the prairie somewhere where you could homestead and protest to your hearts content.Wheres your proof of our new moniker ? Or is it something that you saw in a dream ? I would be willing to bet that if this plant was put to a vote your side would lose hands down.
aged says...
Small and narrow is the mind of one who wishes to not see beyond ones' existence. To forsake a communities needs with petty, idol threats against an employer will not accomplish a communities goal as a whole. A false conception will not bring solutions. To leave a legacy of waste and careless forest stewardship for our future children is of concern to us all.
gazza says...
You are absolutely correct Grouchy, I was there to protest an unproved, dangerous scientific experiment that is being constructed in our back yard. Perhaps you are the one that needs to listen more clearly.
And just to make myself crystal clear BenDover, Physicians are not going to leave the city and commute 50 kms to RIH, they would leave the city for good. That means they will work in other cities. Get it. NO DOCTORS, NO CITY. That's reality.
And I strongly disagree that everything else is secondary BenDover. Do you actaully believe a city newly deemed 'Toxic Capital Of Canada' will attract new health care professionals?
Flatlander says...
Another example of ignorant, self interest groups, their sway on sheeple and why Kamloops will always be sucking the hind teat.
Very few people at the meeting venting and mouthing off here know what they are talking about.
Kamiloops says...
Read this.
http://www.midwestadvocates.org/archive/frenchisland/xcel_comments.pdf
Everything was suppose to work good here. It did not.
It is very difficult to track the specific sources of railroad ties and keep out CCA or Penta
treated ties. The basic waste stream for ties is complex because there is no record keeping for individual ties
In Canada they are much more concerned about the combustion of crossties. They just
assume that every tie was double treated with both Penta and Creosote and proceed
accordingly, which means landfilling, not burning them.5 The head of Environment Canada’s
Industrial Contaminants Section asserts that many of the ties were double treated during the
past half century and the potential release of harmful chemicals is risky enough to avoid
incineration altogether.
The xcel permit requires Xcel to collect samples of the shredded ties once a month to determine
whether or not they contain Penta. Why did MOE not put that in the Permit for ACC?
Crissy says...
Of course its new technology...and it probably does work when it is all shiny and new...bUt what about down the road...glitches, problems, oversights, remember there are no scientists working here....just minimum wagers...I just cant see it going smooth every hour of every day. And if they are like a lot of other polluters around here...they may just do all of their uncontrollable burns at night when it isn't so visible....but all the more dangerous....We just have no safeguards or guarantees in place. There are too many unknowns to even consider this monstrosity at this point....yuck
corky says...
wasa
You and ACC suffer from logic tight compartments..a terrible psychological condition
missprint says...
If you were paying attention BenDover, 100 doctors in town have signed a letter opposing this plant locating here. Doctors and nurses and other professionals can easily take their skills and incomes wherever they wish to. Kamloops needs to remain a desirable place to live to keep the ones we have. There is already a doctor shortage here btw. It would be pretty silly to exacerbate that by adding to our dirty industry. Better yet we go further and clean up the ones we have, i.e. Domtar and do more as individuals to improve the reality AND the perception that Kamloops is putting its money where its mouth is.
BenDover says...
Thanks for coming out anyway,TieGrinderMike....but a lot of us KNEW there would be absolutely NO point in attending as what we said would happen, did happen. People were there to VENT, not listen. Case in point, read "Hilda and Mikes" comment. Sigurdsen has already explained "Why Kamloops?", as it sits on a CP Rail line, the same line that uses the correct ties they want to put in a pile and throw a freakin' match on. Vavenby is on a CN rail line, uses a different tie and is ,what...100 miles from Kamloops ? Geez, Moon, do you actually think doctor's would shun Fruitloops because of a low emission plant like this and relocate to the sunny, smog free Fraser Valley and commute 50 miles each way, every day? The reality is, most (young) doctors want to be in a city for the conveniences and everything else is secondary.
Grouchy says...
Clearly Gazza you were not there to listen and learn. The whole point of the meeting was so ACC could explain the science. Why should he have had his mike turned off? I see a lot of that attitude in the posts here. As long as I get my way , who cares.
Grinder Mike , don't bother being embarrassed for those people, they clearly don't care. All they've achieved is that from now on any industry will think twice before locating here, good or bad,
missprint says...
My thanks and appreciation to all the people that went to the protest and forum. I would have been there had I not had to work.
I do sincerely hope that Mr. Sigurdson has finally received the message loud and clear that Kamloops doesn't want what he's selling.
When I think of all the negative repercussions this plant will have on our community, perceived and real, it infuriates me. After a long wait I finally have a family doctor. The thought of complicating our existing doctor shortage by driving the ones we do have off with this kind of industry makes me cringe. There are so many people that will not choose Kamloops as a place to call home if it goes down this road of welcoming toxic industries.
I think the powers that be need to realize we have reached our tolerance threshold for pollution in this valley regardless of what their scientific "experts" tell them. Kamloops has a right to determine what kind of community we want to build and I believe if we are serious about being the Tournament Capital of Canada and a tourism destination and a place to seek higher education, inviting industries that gasify toxic wastes is beyond counter-productive.
Mr. Sigurdson, thanks but no thanks. Move along and best of luck to you and your business. Go do good somewhere else.
hilda and Wade says...
well I don't think ACC looked very hard to find a suitable site....I can think of one without doing any research...like what about the old weyco sawmill site out by Vavenby it has rail tracks rite thru it and sits on about 20 acres with no close neighbors...sounds to me it would be perfect..I'm sure if I researched this I could find more suitable sites with out too much trouble ...as far as Mr Sigurdson saying he is only trying to do something good...I don't believe this for one moment it's all about the money folks and don't anyone forget it...he could care less if we all choke to death on the death emmisions from his gasification plant....take it far away from Kamloops Mr Sigurdson
TieGrinderMike says...
I was there last night, I thought they did the best job they could have considering the ignorance trying to explain things scientifically and reasonably to a crown of people fresh off their rally and in no mood to learn anything. I felt a little ashamed to be part of a crowd showing the level of rudeness and ignorance that was present. Questions were answered, unfortunately not even the people asking them were listening, so the same questions were asked, and answered over and over. Its too bad really, if people would have actually stopped speaking and started listening, they might have learned something.
Moonriver says...
I agree, the question of "why Kamloops" was never satisfactorily answered. CP has 14,000 route miles of line, and there are plenty of junctions and industrial sites. He never mentioned even looking at single another province or state. Reason being the BC Liberals offered him 1.2 million of our hard earned tax dollars. Also with bill 30 he knew city council's and the people's opposition would be meaningless.
Gazza: One of the (100) doctors did state that Kamloops would have a terrible time recruiting doctors and other health professionals to the city if this ACC plant goes through. It would also repel new citizens and other clean businesses.
If this were true green energy, such as solar or wind, it would be welcomed.
It's also obvious after the Prince George fiasco we can not trust MOE to safely monitor this experimental plant and report the findings or retest if there were problems.
I'm proud of the large, diverse group of people who stood up to have their voices heard and protect our city. Well done!
noidear says...
Good point JJ. Whoever brought the ties in should be on the hook for getting rid of the them, whatever that means. ie. storage where leaching isn't going to happen or incineration (wherever they do set up shop). Simple.
hilda and Wade says...
well I don't think ACC looked very hard to find a suitable site....I can think of one without doing any research...like what about the old weyco sawmill site out by Vavenby it has rail tracks rite thru it and sits on about 20 acres with no close neighbors...sounds to me it would be perfect..I'm sure if I researched this I could find more suitable sites with out too much trouble ...as far as Mr Sigurdson saying he is only trying to do something good...I don't believe this for one moment it's all about the money folks and don't anyone forget it...he could care less if we all choke to death on the death emmisions from his gasification plant....take it far away from Kamloops Mr Sigurdson
Kamiloops says...
Xcel energy runs a tie chipping operation on French Island, within the city of La. Crosse, Wisconsin ,the wells in the area were found to be contaminated with creosote and the wells were closed. The chipped ties were linked to elevated levels of contaminants in wells. “Now the ties are held in railroad cars and are chipped on concrete with a sewer system that collects the leachate/run-off that then goes to the City treatment plant.”
Hello MOE? We have a class A salmon river just yards away! and Residents live downstream!
gazza says...
Firstly I would like to applaud all Kamloopsian's that were in attendance last night. As a new resident of the city I was proud to be part of this movement. Kamloops residents really love their City and it was made very clear last night.
Sadly I left the meeting feeling angry, upset and defeated. I was very concerned prior to this meeting, now I am deeply concerned. And for good reason. Clearly ACC does NOT know what they are doing and they must be stopped.
Due to the high volume of questions last night I was unable to voice mine. There would of been more time if Mr Adams would of kept his long winded scientific blah blah blah replies to 1 minute like the rest of us, why was no one turning his microphone off???
My question's are as follow's:
What is ACC going to do when Physicians start leaving Kamloops? What is the City going to do when they cant recruit new one's. What are the resident's going to do?
There is no town with no Doctors, especially when there are 90,000 of us?
My wife is a highly needed specialist in this community and sadly we are looking alternative options. We choose Kamloops because we wanted a forever home, somewhere we could start a family and plant our roots. Had we known about the ACC plans we would of never considered Kamloops.
Have you considered this Mr Sigurdson?
Grouchy says...
Every one cries for green technology to help rid our selves of pollution, yet when a company comes along and says it will do that , all of a sudden it will be bad, The cries of " not in my back yard" become overwhelming.How will we ever be rid of these ties if no one wants this plant around ?
wasa says...
Corky you were not paying attention last night at the forum, ACC did everything correctly!!!
The sooner the co-gen unit is set up and running the better. And Kamloops will be recognized for its environmentally responsible actions.
I would also like to thank Mr.Adams for his factual, knowledgeable input.
David Barclay says...
At last nights meeting on the ACC prposal the only reason to place this plant in Kamloops in the middle of 90,000 people is to get prompt delivery of CPR Railway ties. That is NOT a good enough reason to put human life at risk, exspecially when this plant is just in test stages and is not a proven technolegy. To experiment in the middle of a large population does not make any sense. It is time for our political leaders to stop this nonsense quietly and quickly before it starts to effect their own futures.
noidear says...
Atta boy!
corky says...
I don't wish any ill winds to blow on Winnipeg; however,listening to Mr. Sigurdson state "we chose Kamloops because it is a railway centre where we could get four deliveries a week..."
Why not Winnipeg? It's closer to the centre of Canada. Both major Canadian Railways run through Winnipeg. The branch line to The Pas is adjacent to Winnipeg. American railways can more readily send ties to Winnipeg than Kamloops.It seems to me there would be the potential for more ties to be delivered on a more regular basis in Winnipeg than in Kamloops.Why not Winnipeg?
Winnipeg's airflow is not trapped between mountains. Why not Winnipeg?
Furthermore,Winnipeg has a greater need for alternate sources of generating electricity than does Kamloops. Why not Winnipeg?
By your own ommission, you botcherd public consultationn in Kamloops. Here is an opportunity to start over..closer to home where people know you thereby providing a basis for public trust in your judgement. Why not Winnipeg?
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0What are you people whining about?
You got more input on ACC than anyone got on the water meters.
Btw, heard on the radio this morning that ACC is coming to town!
Posted on March 18, 2010 @ 7:18 pm PST | Report post to Editor | 3507227